Gifts of the Spirit – Healing (S5: Ep 11)

There we go. Hello, everyone. It's Thursday, and we are back again as the wonderful trio that we are. Got Ngong with us. He's trying to look very demure.

I've been I've been longing to use that word, demure. Trying to do what? Trying to look demure. You know what's so funny? That word, I had used that word eighties ago and completely forgot about it.

And then when it came back, I was like, what? That's not you. That's such an old word. But, but, yeah, we were I knew demure before it was demure. Oh, well, there you go.

Sure. We've got G who's looking rather splendid in, She's looking like, I don't know, a US First Lady. She in Her her lady? Or what's her name? A US First Lady.

Oh. The pearls. Looking very, very nice. Party. Well, I'm pretty Nancy Reagan esque.

Sure. Sure. I plan to be queen of Scotland soon, don't I? So I'm just getting the adjectives. Yeah.

Yes. Look. Very lovely, Gee. Absolutely love it. Fuck.

Not bad for an old woman. Come on. Yeah. Oh, no. Not old.

Who's She's trying. She's trying. She's trying. Yes. We've also got Sharon, with us as usual.

Thank you, Sharon, for sharing. Sharon. It's always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Yes.

And yeah. And hello to everybody who's actually gonna join us later or listen to this on playback. So tonight, we are going to carry on our series. So we started the series, I think We've done about two or three episodes so far in this series, with gifts of the spirit Mhmm. Which is in one Corinthians 12.

And so we've just been sort of taking each gift and just, discussing it and seeing what we understand them to be. So this is not prescriptive by any chance. It's not sort of all the knowledge bundled into one. No. It's just our opinion, our understanding, our interpretation.

That's a better word. It's our interpretation of it. And so, as always, if you wanna add something or maybe you feel like you wanna call us out on something, drop us a message, or an email. We'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your interpretations and and your opinions as well.

It's always good to to engage in these sort of conversations. So just for a bit of background, I'm just going to read, one from one Corinthians from verse four, all the way to verse 11, just to give you a bit of context. So it says, there are different kinds of gifts, but the same spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone, it is the same God at work.

Now to each one, the manifestation of the spirit is given for the common good. To one, there is given through spirit, through the spirit, a message of wisdom. To another, a message of knowledge by means of the same spirit. To another faith by means of the same spirit. To another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another, the interpretation of tongues.

All these are the work of one and the same spirit, and he distributes them to each one just as he determines. Yeah. So I think we've we've done wisdom, done knowledge. We've done faith. And so I think today we're going to look at healing.

It's interesting here though that when it talks about the healing in verse nine, it says actually, let's let's back up a little bit. Let's just say so it starts off with saying, to each one, the manifestation of the spirit is given for the common good. So it makes the point here of saying, I think, anyway, that the same spirit, one spirit at work within the body of the church distributes these gifts to different spirits. And so each each person has a manifestation of the spirit as a gift in in one cap one of these capacities. Interestingly, when it says healing here, it's it's gifts, so plural, which means perhaps there are different sort of gifts of healing.

So it's not the gift of healing. It's gifts of healing. I mean, what gee, what do you make of that? Well, there's healings in many different ways. There's physical, mental, spiritual.

That's three, isn't it? Not everything means that, if you're going to be healed, not everything means means that we're going to be healed physically. But I've often said it, you've heard me say it here that I can guarantee you, everybody can be healed spiritually. And that gives us gives us the strength, the endurance, everything to be able to withstand any physical illness or disability that we still have. Because aren't we told that, that, when he's he's he's greatest when we're weakest.

So yeah, there's many different ways to be healed. There really is. And that's just what I think. Some people might agree with me, some people might not agree with me. And what we've got to remember is that healing, it comes from God, at his discretion.

And it's not the person that's praying for you or laying hands on you healing you. It's the Holy Spirit working through you. Because too many people, even in the Christian realm, I believe, have got sort of they think that they're the greatest because they're healing people. And no, it's not them. It's God.

It's God working through people. So it is. And you're all glory to God if and when people are healed, but it's it's it's down to God. It really is. %.

Ngum, gifts of healing. I know it's one that sort of comes up in depending on which denomination you are within the body. When you hear that, what do you think of? Oh, I think I connect healing for miracles a lot. You know?

Again, this is one of the gifts that I think is very, very well expressed in the Catholic church. If you're growing up, you know, like, Catholics just know that healing is a thing. And I've actually heard somewhere that if you look at in terms of verified miraculous healings, a lot of them happen in the Catholic church. But I just think I grew up really relatively at ease with the idea of healing because it was just a thing, the Catholic church. It was not you know, they may not be so hot on prophecy and stuff, but healing was just it was just a thing.

Right? Whether you thought it was through going to the grotto and praying through Mary or whatever. But I just love that. It was just never a problem for me growing up to think that you could pray to God and he could heal you. You know?

It was never a problem. But and, again, if you look in in, you know, Pentecostal circles I guess because human beings, let's face it, by nature, we don't like to suffer. Right? Mhmm. They should talk kind of intuitive to human nature to want to suffer.

So I guess this is why people gravitate so much towards physical healing. I would wanna be physical physically healed if I was in a lot of pain. I'm not gonna lie. So I think that, you know, it is natural for people to want to be healed. I think it's also natural for people to be to feel disappointed if they don't get the kind of physical healing that they want.

I mean, we hear of Paul saying that he pleaded with God three times to take away whatever it was that was making him very uncomfortable. You know? And sometimes I think people have to have that poor moment where God himself comes and says, okay. Look. I'm not going to take this thing away, but I'm going to give you the grace to be able to handle it.

So I am very okay with the idea of people going through their process. Healing is legitimate. It's right here in Corinthians. We saw Jesus actually heal people. Right?

So I don't think it's an over because I think sometimes people go to this extreme of almost discouraging people from praying for healing. No. I think if you're feeling that pain, be upfront with God. It is quite possible that that that problem will be taken away. There are testimonies in the bible and even extra biblical as we look in the modern times.

And I also feel that being in that place where you need healing can can be, it can really help you grow your relationship with God. You know? Sometimes the physical healing may not come immediately. We hear people say things like they prayed for years, and then the healing finally happened. Right?

Mhmm. So perhaps sometimes, God delays their healing to develop their character. Mhmm. You know, it's quite possible. Sometimes, maybe it's to build your faith, but I really believe that, you know, people shouldn't stop praying because they feel like God doesn't want to heal you.

No. I think the right thing to do is to is to say to God, I've been praying about this thing for a year, for five years. Why is it not working out? Because I think then you open you open up room for a discussion and a relationship that, you know, maybe you would never have had. That's good advice, Megan.

I like that. So I do. Alright. I really do. I'll that's wonderful wise words.

And you see your gift there is your gift of wisdom coming through. Beautiful. And you mentioned Catholicism, and I'm not bride beating and getting in the back of Catholicism again. But I believe too many Roman Catholics believe that they to be healed, they've got to see about all their money and go off the lurch to be healed. No.

That is mumbo jumbo. God will meet you where you are. You don't have to go to Lourdes. As Nahum says, you know, pray to God about it. And it hasn't happened instantly.

Why? Why? Yeah. Yeah. Because it's it is okay to ask to question God.

We question it. It is like you. Why hasn't this prayer be answered? Why aren't you? Why?

Why? Why? Why? And many times it might be because you're not taking the time to listen to him. But Yeah.

We do we do we do we do need to question him. I don't mean to come all gun blazing and coming in like a big bull in the china shop. He knows the bullhorn. So pull the horns in a bit and come to him. We're we're to come to him with boldness.

Yeah. And it is okay to question him. But I love the fact too about these spiritual gifts that we're talking about that you you can break them down into three sections. The nine gifts, three sections here. There's miraculous gifts, there's enabling gifts gifts, and there's task oriented gifts.

Mhmm. What was the last one to me? I didn't get the last one. Task oriented. Oh.

Yeah. Well, when you think about it, you're okay. Let me let you see. Here comes the sermon head again. The miraculous gifts you've got, you're speaking in tongues, miracles, and healing.

Then you're enabling gifts at your discernment, your faith, and your wisdom, your task oriented gifts. Now you can throw in there evangelism, prophecy, teaching, sharing, serving of service, giving and administration. Now the giving and administration administration just doesn't mean to say you're going to sit in an office shuffling papers roll up your desk all all every day. But to me administration is that I think a very important ministry for every church is being able to make a good cup of either tea or coffee. Most people want a cup either before or after the service, or I attended a church one time, and would you believe it, they interrupted the praise and worship to have a cup of coffee.

And then I can get out and thought, oh, no. No. No. No. This isn't the place for me.

So I left. I was on Eliud visiting. But, wait. Really? Yeah.

Really? Seriously. Seriously. And, also, when we all go to church, when we go anywhere, but we all go to church, we want to walk into a clean bathroom, but not many of us are prepared to actually go in and clean clean the toilets. That is a great ministry.

I started off in ministry cleaning the toilets. Mhmm. I did. I kept people say. Wonderful things about it.

Pride in cleaning those toilets. And within months, God had elevated me to a higher station within that church, that ministry. So yeah. So administration to me is all that. And and that sort of thing combines serving as well, doesn't it?

Because you want to serve other people. You want to make sure things are nice and warm. You want to make sure that that even when you come into the church, you the the main sanctuary, you don't wanna see dust all over the place, do you? You don't wanna see kids potato crumbs all over the floor. You wanna see a clean sanctuary.

So the housekeeping is important too. So that's all serving. Yep. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I I don't know.

I know there's some people that sort of think some of the gifts were for the early day Christians, and they're not sort of operational in today's judgment. I don't particularly agree with that. However, I think there are perhaps you know, first and foremost, I think I'm I'm with Paul when he says, like, you know, if you do all these things but you have no love in your heart, then you're just like an empty, a resounding one. So I think first and foremost, love is what anchors all of this. Love for God and love for for one another.

I think Mhmm. All these gifts because, essentially, they're given from God for the benefit of the church. And so what can the glue that sticks it all together. And and if you think of one of these Japanese pots, I think it's kintsugi. If you think of them, you know, that are broken, what holds all of them together is love.

And if you think of where all sort of those broken pieces, when we come together to form the body of Christ, what what holds us or what blinds us altogether is love, love for one another. But what keeps us bound together is the love of God. So what brings us together is the love for one another. But what keeps us bound together over time and into eternity is the love of God. And so I think all these gifts, first and foremost, should be operated with love, in love, and out of love.

Yeah. Absolutely. However, there's there's also what I do not agree with and what I perhaps struggle to reconcile in my limit limited brain and and capacity to understand is when people say, for example, that they have the gifts of healing. And whenever they lay hands on somebody, that person gets well. I do not agree with that because I think that makes it about the person, not about God.

I think That's true. If it's from God, God has the power to choose to heal somebody regardless of whether or not you're you're just, like, you're just a vessel, and you're just a channel. And so you don't get to decide that whenever you lay hands on somebody, they're going to be well. And so I don't agree with people who or I don't agree when I see people who lay hands on every single person and every single person is healed because to me, in my brain, that speaks of you're in control of that gift. That's a holy handkerchief situation.

Wow. It's just going holy handkerchief direction. Especially when money is involved. Well, yeah. And I think I think that's sort of that that that, to put it strongly, that robs God of the glory.

Yes. Because it's not about you. You don't choose who you heal. God choose who you heal. Yeah.

Yeah. It's that Yeah. Like, if that gift is genuinely from the holy spirit Yep. You may lay hands on somebody and they're healed, but you may also lay hands on somebody else and they're not healed. And it doesn't happen.

You know what? That means you're not in control of that gift. It's it's all from the holy spirit, and it will happen according to God's will. And I know it's a very unpopular view, and I think I have spoken to, like, some other Christians who don't agree with my viewpoint. And that's okay.

Yeah. They What I can No. No. No. Can I say something?

I actually think what you're saying is scriptural. We're hearing here. Anybody who doesn't agree, I'll say this to them. Go and open one Corinthians 12. If a gift is something that is is given out of the free will, right, God knows what he's put in that package.

And even I've come across, ministers who pray for healing, and the honest ones will tell you the truth, that not everybody that they pray for gets healed. And sometimes they actually go back to God and say, wow. Why didn't this happen? Right? Mhmm.

And, you know, they may get some kind of explanation. Because let's say you really you have a friend that you really love and you're praying and praying and praying and that person dies. It's normal to go to God and say, woah. I prayed. I fasted.

What happened here? So I think that anybody who argues with what you're saying, Seduni, needs to consult the scriptures because if it's the holy spirit hear people. Okay. Yes. Yes.

Yes. The holy spirit is working through you. It is the mind of the holy spirit. The holy spirit may decide to heal that person because anybody who then begins to say, if I lay hands on you, you'll get healed. At that point, you're operating in pride Exactly.

Or not you realize it. Because like you said, Sunil, you're making it about yourself. Right? And then you begin to hear expressions like powerful man of God. And all the like, what?

Yeah. No. You're not the only power in you is the holy spirit. And I feel that sometimes also some ministers, whether they've done it deliberately or not, you need to set the right expectations for people. Right?

I would say that if you were in a session where you were healing people, yes, it's good to teach. Do a little bit of teaching. Come out with this Corinthians one, for example. Mhmm. And let people know that what you're operating in, you're, like you said, Sydney, just a vessel.

Right? Mhmm. So it is the mercy of God that will prevail here. And sometimes the mercy of God doesn't prevail the way you expect it to. So let's still pray for healing, but know that it's not me.

So that that way, when the person isn't healed, you don't feel embarrassed. Right? You don't have to now start stage managing things the way we see sometimes. You know? Donnie's laughing, but this is the reality.

These These are some of the things that we're seeing in church, and we just have to tell the truth. Right? Mhmm. If you come out and you're like, yes. I taught you, you must get healed, then the thing is not happening.

Guess what? You know? I've heard funny stories. You're going to pressure people into pretending that they've been healed. You're going to or you're just going to get people to come and act like there was a you know, or you're going to, you know, swipe swipe your hand and, you know, people will push people to fall when there's no power there.

Or worst case scenario, and this is really guys, listen. You're going to turn to the occult. Mhmm. Because whether we like it or not, there are people operating in occultic powers in churches today Mhmm. Because they are trying to prove a point.

And this brings you back to that laying of hands. You have to be very careful who lays hands on you because you don't know which spirit they're carrying. Big big big type. Show on you. It's like yeah.

I believe strongly in, the gift of tongues or personal prayer language and prophesying and interpreting the tongues and the divers tongues. It's not everybody I would let pray over me in tongues, because I don't know what they're saying. Only God knows your prayer language. But in some sort of language or something like that, they could be cursing me. So it's not everybody all let pray over me in in tongues.

But I watched a video about two weeks ago of I believe she's an American. I think she's a prophetess. Maybe she's an apostle now. Maybe she's been promoted. But, great miracles.

She's a faith healer. Oh. And I watched a video of her on stage praying for people for deliverance. And she told people, if you're not delivered, it means you're not tiding enough money. Oh, please.

No. Come on. Seriously. I just Seriously. That's people of American churches, you know, it happens to all of American churches.

Seriously. No. That is not true. That is not true. No.

No. No. Okay. She she she she did round it up that sort of you. And I don't mean you have to give to my ministry as long as you give to something.

Okay. But but knowing that the people there at that conference was gonna, of course, pile money onto the platform for Herman. It's right Of course. To try to have their deliverance. If you're not delivered, if you're not healed of anything, it's not because you're not praying enough that your faith isn't strong enough, or you're not giving enough money to the church.

It's none of those reasons. So don't be fooled into Oh, it's terrifying. The holy handkerchiefs, please. And also, I think it's important at this point to say, Jesus said, freely you freely you have received, freely give. Salvation is free.

Yes. Deliverance is free. Exactly. Do not be coerced. Don't let anybody fool you into saying, you have to pay or or they probably won't say you have to pay, but do not be coerced, into thinking that God needs your money in order to save you or in order to give you blessings.

He doesn't. No. No. Your your Yeah. That's giving is as a response to the love and for what he's already done for you.

Your giving is a response, is a response to the blessings that you have received. It is not a prerequisite to receive blessings. Like Nope. I'm getting just so emotional just thinking thinking about just the the number of people that live in this trap of deception. And it really is heartbreaking because the human greed is just so powerful.

And Jesus came and and just took all our pain on himself. And he took all our sorrows on himself. And and even in Isaiah, it says he was pierced and for our iniquities and he was bruised for our transgressions. Like, Jesus took all of that on himself. You do not need to do anything to benefit from his death.

All you need to do is just accept that he is who he says he was or he is who he says he is, and and just come with an open heart, and he will meet you wherever you are. And and I think one of the most famous stories in in in the Bible is is the story of the prodigal son, and you see the father's heart for this wayward child. You see the father's heart for the quote unquote good child, and it's the same love he exhibits to both children. Both the one that decides to run away and the one that feels self righteous because he's at home. And the father's heart towards both towards both sons are the same.

And it's just so heartbreaking that people prey on people's desperation, and people's hurt. Mhmm. And please, please, please, if you hear nothing else today, hear that. You don't have to pay for anything. No.

Not a pillar. No. God does not You don't have to. Even if they call it a saint. Yeah.

You don't have to. Need anything from you. He's not Yeah. What he asks from you is as a response for what he's done for you. And and and so when you appreciate what he's done for you, then you give willingly and without compulsion.

When you can actually sit and think, hang hang on a minute. I'm a wretched sinner. I don't deserve anything. I don't even deserve the breath in my lungs. Yet, Lord, you give it to me every day abundantly.

Mhmm. Really think, sit and think, God, I deserve the death that you died on the cross. When you think, Jesus, that death was really my my punishment. That should have been on me, not you. And so I will respond with everything that I have willingly and without compulsion.

I will give you all of me. It's it's just like if you hear nothing else today, just don't Yep. Don't be fooled. Okay? Please.

And and Langone quite rightly said, if if you go to somebody who who says that they've got the gifts of healing, and I'm gonna say they say that they've got the gifts of healing because we have no objective measure of testing these gifts. There's no objective way of testing whether you've got the gift and how much percentage of the gift. It's not like, you know, when you're charging your battery, you can be like, oh, it's 50% charged or it's a % charged. We've got no objective way of testing people's gifts and knowing Yeah. Like, exactly how much of the gift you've got.

But when you go to somebody who says that they've got the gifts of healing, if the person is honest enough, it will come out and they will say to you, even though I pray for you, the healing is from God. It's from the spirit. And they will they will almost always start and and ask for God's will to be done, and they will encourage you to accept that will however it is. If it is God's will for you to be healed, God will use them to heal you. If it's not God's will for you to be healed, they may pray, but that will not happen.

And I think we just need to be to be open about this. And and also in good not in good mood. Giselle, you made a very good point. And and when you said healing isn't always about the physical. I think sometimes in our minds, when we hear healing, we think of the miraculous like Jesus did, you know, the lame jumping up or walking, the blind seeing again, people who have been bedridden for for years or decades, you know, standing up and running a marathon or a five k.

When we hear of healing, we think of things like that. And and perhaps as a church body, we maybe need to stop thinking of healing in those terms. Yes. That's supernatural. And, yes, that that all happens and God can do that.

Yes. But healing for me anyway, when I think of healing, I think of the everyday life. Yes. I think of someone who's really struggling to get through one day or another, But then you come beside them, and and all of a sudden, the next month is better than last month. And you're on that journey with them.

You're praying with them. You're praying for them. And God might use you to do something supernatural in their life or or he might not. And it sometimes that healing is just being able to ring somebody every day and go, I'm with you. Okay.

No. You're going through this. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

Form of healing. And, like, what we got from there as well is in Psalm one zero three and verse three, it says, that he will heal my disease. Now some versions say disease, a lot of versions say diseases. And I prefer the disease. Now it's not a disease as a, like, a virus or an ailment or something like that, but it's broken down as two words.

It's disease. And Disease. Middle English, dis ease means lack of ease and inconvenience. Mhmm. Like, that's what I'll heal.

And I it was a set as I said at the start of it, I can nearly guarantee God will give you your your help you through that lack of, you know, lack of ease or inconvenience. He will guide you through it so you can be healed of that disease. You really you really can heal spiritually. But as we say, not everybody and and we'll not know the real reason why everybody isn't healed physically here on the earth until we're in heaven. And we ask God himself, then we will get the real answer.

And as we've said, I really, really do wanna push it home. Sedona, you have said it beautifully, but we really gotta push it home that if you belong to a church or you're watching somebody online, and they're asking you for money, if you give me a load of money and you'll be healed, run a mile from them. Don't give them one ride to Kenny. To be honest that works. Yeah.

Even if you get healed, right, you're probably healed through some some means that you don't really want, and it's gonna come back and bite you. You know? But, also, I think I really like that you you read and noticed that you gifts of healing. So, yeah, I've never seen that. The reason why I say this because I think, again, as people of faith, sometimes we ignore the value in medical science as part of the gifts.

Because if you really understand science, and I were having a little chat just before, like, there is no way you can know and love science and not believe in god. That's my opinion, right, based on my knowledge of science. No. That's Because science is just such a gift. And I I I watched something the other day where somebody said, science is God's act of mercy to humanity.

Right? Mhmm. Because it will work for believer and nonbeliever. And I think that sometimes we we underestimate the gift of science. Mhmm.

Right? There are people who would look down on a woman who has had a baby by cesarean compared to a compared to a woman who hasn't because they feel that somehow, you know, there's this thing that they're saying. People that would disregard medicine because they want to go to a pastor to pray for them to be healed. Exactly. You know, you could be healed.

But look at the technology, right, that God has given. Look at the the the the mind that God has given scientists to go and research. I actually think science is is not that it's experience or miraculous healing. Medicine is a common grace. Self impresses me because you really kinda have conversations with God as a scientist who believes in God.

I mean, I have an uncle who was a scientist, a prominent doctor in Cameroon, and he he said in one of his interviews that I I I read that the deeper you get into science, the more you see the face of God. And I really believe that because you're looking at these cells under a microscope. Right? And you're trying to understand its behavior. And there's a guy oh, I can't remember his name.

African American doctor who admitted that a lot of his work in science was just God used to tell him things to do. He would get up and go for walks. Oh, I think it's George Washington Carver. You should read about him, guys. Like, he came up with all these amazing things to do with peanuts.

Right? And he he had all these he was an amazing scientist. And he said he used to get up and have his morning walks. And God really should tell him, look at that that herb. Look at this.

Look at that. And so why do you think that some researcher is not sitting in the lab and say to god, these cells, why do they behave the way they do? And I wish those of us in faith who are in science would would look at our work like that and really ask god, you know, why? I mean, I I work in health care. Right?

Doctors, believers or not, would tell you about a thing called god feeling diagnosis, where there is nothing about a patient that suggests that they have this disease. And for whatever reason in your heart, you know. And so the doctor will be like, do this test. And everybody thinks that doctor is crazy. And he'll push on and do a test that doesn't look at all textbook wise that this patient should have, and he comes back and shows cancer or something.

Mhmm. It is the thing that experienced doctors, experienced nurses. No. And these are just acts of mercy. Right?

God gives a lot. I believe that science, a lot of medical people get words of knowledge whether or not they believe in God. I I really believe that God speaks to them. So we should look at medical science. We should look at just the the beauty of science, even the fact that God is like, no.

I'm not gonna do this for you. I will I need you to work with me. I'll figure this out. Figure how this cell works. Figure out how you can make it behave like this because this is what I'm capable of doing, but I'm gonna put that capability in you as a scientist.

Now I'm gonna show you how I have designed this cell so that if it comes out of the way it should be, you can do x, y, or zed through it. I think it's you know, I'm not here to over explore medicine because it has its limitations. But I strongly believe that you know, if we look at the miracle yes. I if you look at the miracle, that is science. If you look at just the things that you know, if you look at the the mechanism in which any medicine works, how your body breaks it down, And, you know, if if you've had a sick relative or you know, you see how people slowly begin to turn around slowly begin to turn around as they get better.

And you see somebody who couldn't walk, and then with physiotherapy, that strength begins to like, I think sometimes God even wants to be poetic. He wants it to be slow so that you really appreciate it. Right? Because if you ever watch somebody recover from a stroke, it's an incredible thing. One minute, they cannot move the, at all.

And then with physiotherapy, you know, every day. And like you said, Sidoni, sometimes that healing is happening, you know, emotional healing, physical are happening at the same time in tandem with each other because they depend so much. When you talk to people who have chronic diseases or they've had some life altering situation, the mental health is really important because often, if that mind is strong, the body will follow. Thanks. Yeah.

So that's the thing that we always have to remember in church. We shouldn't only look at the physical. Sometimes you know, I attended an event where somebody actually said something interesting. You know, I think it's worked in healing ministry. And he said one thing he realized is that people who have dealt with trauma, and I'm sure there are science papers to back this up.

A lot of the time when they pray for healing, it doesn't happen. But if you pray for them to heal from the trauma, the body will follow. Mhmm. And it makes a lot of sense because the body stores of trauma. So I think what we're just trying to say here is pay attention to the things that you can do to boost a person's mind because you never know.

Once that mind is boosted, that pain may reduce. That movement I mean, there's a very strong connection between pain and oneself. That is healing in itself. That's healing in itself. But what I'm saying is that we should we should have, like, a holistic approach to healing.

Don't just focus on the body. Focus on the mind because sometimes the mind is the cause. And it is not unusual for the body to follow when the mind is right. Mhmm. Mhmm.

And, ultimately, this the healing is, like you said at the start, it's it's to point us to spiritual healing because, you know, we're all sinners and we're all in need of healing. And that's that's why Jesus came to say that we may all be healed. And I think she's also this when when we started. It's the fact that we all need healing. Yes.

Of course, there are ailments and diseases in this in this life that this side of heaven that we we all encounter, and we all pray for ease from our diseases. But, ultimately, God wants us to keep our eyes on him. And he wants us to focus on him because the biggest the biggest affliction of man is sin. And that the hardest affliction of man is sin, not just because it's got consequences in the here and the now, but because it has everlasting consequences. And so Jesus really came to provide us that ultimate healing for thou and eternity.

And so Exactly. It's this this the healing that we get now, if we were to get it now, is is a a a foretelling of of an even bigger healing that's Mhmm. That's to come of of the sort of Yeah. Abundant life that God wants us to have after this life. But I think we I personally I think, Gumi, you sort of cut out earlier when I when I was saying this, and we've got no way of measuring somebody's, like, healing ability, almost like a a battery where you're charging and you go, yeah.

You've got 50% charge. You've got 50% healing ability. We've got no way of measuring that objectively. So I would say test every spirit. Oh, yes.

Absolutely. To someone that is a self professed healer. I I use those words completely, subjectively, trusting that you will pray for for wisdom and discernment to to to be objective about it. Yeah. If you go to someone that is a self professed healer asking for healing, just be aware that the healing that comes is not from that person.

It is from God. Mhmm. Mhmm. And God can say yes, no, maybe, wait. These are all valid.

These are all valid arms. Actually, he won't say maybe because he's he's quite he doesn't you know, he's black or white. He doesn't say yes, no, or wait. And in the in the knowledge of what his answers could be, if you decide to submit yourself to someone's healing ministry or healing prayer, I would say, first and foremost, they should pray for your soul to be healed. Yep.

If you can be someone that's praying for you to be healed but they have no concern over your soul, I'd say run. But, hey, that's just me. Yeah. If I go for someone who wants to heal my body but has no concern over where my soul's gonna end up, For me, that's not a that's not somebody who understands the love of God, the the the depth of God, and the sacrifice of the cross. And you don't wanna be associated with that.

If if you also go to somebody that professes themselves to be a healer Oh, that's a big indicator. They tell you that they've done 300 healings this year or 300 events this year where they've healed 10 people. Quoting stats? I'd say run. Yeah.

Because it's never from the healer. The ultimate healer is the spirit. And the spirit will decide the spirit doesn't ring you and go, hey, by the way, I'm gonna give you your quota for this week is 10. You're gonna like it doesn't work like that. I mean, you can be healed without even asking, you know.

Yeah. There are people who didn't even pray, and then they just woke up the next day. Like, oh my goodness. This thing isn't yeah. Yeah.

Awesome. So these are just, like, little indicators of of how you can, for lack of a better word, discern between Yes. Those that are grounded in the spirit and those that are perhaps charlatans. Sorry if anybody handkerchief. Any kind of payment.

I don't care whether they call it a Even if not payment. Even if not payment. Even if they don't say payment. Because some people some people don't necessarily ask for money, but they, it's kind of like a, what do you call it now? Reputational capital.

It's not necessarily like they want your money, but they want you to invest in them, like, emotionally and psychologically. Like, they want Ah. Emotional capital that you've got. And then once they get you in there, then they start filling your head with all these things. I don't necessarily even think that they may ask you for money, but I think you should always, always just test every spirit.

And and if in doubt, open your Bible. Like, the word of God is there for all of us to be able to understand. And if you're not sure, open your Bible. And if if they're talking about themselves more than they're talking about God or Jesus, run. Run.

Absolutely run. Run. If they're more interested in healing you now than in in in pointing you to the cross for eternal salvation, run. If they're if they're all about the showmanship and you have to fall at a certain angle or at a certain, like, beat of the drum, run. Like I'm sorry.

If there's too much theatrics around it, I'm sorry to say, look, I'm African. Okay? We are naturally very hyper people. But I'm telling you, you can tell because Just if there is just too much theatrics around it. If if it looks more like a performance, it is the performance.

And if you pray and ask the spirit for guidance and discernment and the spirit tells you that that's not where you should be, listen to the spirit and run. Do not let your emotional and your physical needs in the here and the now deprive you from heaven. And and and I know I'm very subjective, and I know I probably have my own biases. And so I would say, you know, however the spirit leads you, and and also maybe don't we've said this in in sort of different ways tonight and don't underestimate the the power of the little blessings that you get. You know that that song we sing in Sunday school, Count Your Blessings, name them one by one.

Do not underestimate that that's a healing mercy. Now you can wake up in the morning and actually ring or go on your phone and contact a healing ministry. That's a mercy on its own. Like, don't doubt that. Don't you even woke up.

Appreciate those. And and and and know that it's a gift. You can ask for the gifts. The spirit, I say yes, no, wait, and say Yes. Holy spirit, I really need the gift of healing, and I wanna be completely selfish.

It's for me this time. Please heal me. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know what you said about, gratitude, you don't need that?

That's actually scientifically proven. Gratitude actually helps to boost your mental health, which can in turn help your physical health. Mhmm. So let's let's put all of that to practice. There are some genuinely gifted people out there that have the the gifts of of healing.

I don't think they're as popular as people make them out to be. I don't think they're as numerous as people make them out to be. I don't think the people that genuinely have they're operating in this gift. And to be fair, I don't even think the people that have this gift are perhaps as renowned and No. They don't publicize themselves.

No. They don't. Yep. I I think they just generally want to help, and they don't mind being low key. Yeah.

So, And it could be everyone. There's no stereotype, I think. Because sometimes people have this image, right, of an a pastor in a fancy suit. Look. Even a five year old could pray for you, and you'll be healed.

And I think people need to to it it doesn't always have to be, an ordained minister. It can be anybody. It could be your colleague at work. It could be your friend that you pray with in church. It could be your child.

You know, like, soon he said, even you can pray for yourself. There is no stereotypical image of somebody who can pray for you for healing. Because the Lord will use whoever he chooses to. Yes. Yes.

The Lord will and, you know, I think it says if even if if you don't pray me, I'll raise up this. If you don't praise me, I'll raise up the stones. The praise me. So God will God will use whoever and whatever he wants. Big time.

Big time. And and I think it's it's it's important that we don't discard of of the gift of healing completely. Mhmm. No. We couldn't.

But we No. We couldn't. Vary and be careful. Discard a gift. It is.

Yeah. And and be careful and perhaps pray for the spirit of discernment, when we are seeking out people that should lay hands on us. Yes. To put it in Christianity. That's very Judy, did you have anything you wanted to add?

No. Thank you. Thank you, ladies. It's been a lovely conversation. Indeed.

I feel like I've I've navigated this positively, a lot more positively than I thought I would. I'm actually gonna give him my full credit. You see how the holy spirit guided you? Come on. Hallelujah.

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. You know, one of those ones I was thinking, this could go really Yeah. Really negative.

But I think it's It was good. It was really good. I think what she was also thinking was, how is she gonna respond? Is she gonna put her head in the chopping block again? Is G gonna call the spade a spade?

Is G gonna get us into trouble? No. I know you just know you just know you just know you just know you just know you just know you just know how you think about this one. I know how you feel about this. And I also like, the other one I'm looking forward to is the gift of tongs because I also know how you feel about that.

So I think that would be an interesting one when we do get around to talking about it. Brilliant. Mhmm. But yeah. No.

Shall we pray before we say goodnight? Please. Go ahead. Sure. Our Lord and our God, we thank you for all these wonderful gifts that you have bestowed on us.

That we do not deserve, yet you give us safe freely. Oh, yes, sir. But we ask that you would help us to recognize these gifts even in the the sometimes, quote unquote, small ways in our lives. Things that we perhaps take for granted that are your common grace to us all. Acts of mercy that we enjoy, that we take for granted, or acts of favor.

Even just waking up in the morning and being able to just have breath in our lungs and talk and see the light of day. These are all acts of mercy that we don't deserve yet you bestow on us. Lord, as we've come looking at the gifts of healing, we ask, Lord, that you would heal us all ultimately of our sin. Lord, that you would help us and and and meet our greatest need, which is the need to be reconciled to you. We ask, Lord, that for those that are perhaps asking us to heal them, this side of heaven of of one ailment or another, Lord, that you would heal them according to your will.

If it is in your will that you would do that. Mhmm. And if it's not in your will to heal them this side of heaven, lord, that we ask that you would give them the grace and strength to bear their pain and their suffering Yes, lord. Always giving glory and honor to you in all that they do. Because, ultimately, they know that in the resurrection with their new bodies, Lord, you will heal them perfectly forever.

Heavenly father, for those that are so downtrodden and so desperate that they go up searching for healing, We ask, Lord, that you would please guide their steps. Do not let them fall into the traps of wolves. Show them mercy, Lord. Direct their steps. Send them to those that would point them back to you.

Lord, for the rest of us within the church, the church body and family, help us to be those that walk with one another, to provide healing emotionally. Help us to be those that help people each day to feel better. Mhmm. Help us to provide healing in whatever little capacity that we can to one another. Yes, lord.

Let us do it all out of love for one another and also love for you. Mhmm. For if we operate in all these gifts but have no love, then, lord, we are nothing. Mhmm. Lord, we ask that you would help us all to remember that you are the greatest healer.

You came to heal us from all our sin. You pierce for our transgression. Prise for our iniquities. Please, Lord, help us to keep our eyes fixed on you always on the mountain tops and in the valleys. And even if we walk through the valley of the shadow of death, Lord, help us to fear no evil, for you are with us always.

Let us remember that promise and cling onto it in those dark times, even when it feels like healing is far away from us. We ask that you would be with each and every single one of us until next week, Lord. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Amen.

Amen. Thank you for that, Presley. That was beautiful. That was powerful. That really was.

Right. I'm gonna stop the recording now. Okay? So good night Good night. Everybody in recording that.

Good night, everybody. Thank you so much.